One year has passed since the genocidal military campaign that Israel launched against Gaza following the October 7 attack. After slaughtering more than 40,000 Palestinians, including more than 16,500 children, and displacing nearly one million people, the Israeli military is now invading Lebanon and threatening to go to war with Iran.
While the global DIY punk scene hasn’t been idle over the past 12 months—supporting victims through international solidarity, mutual aid, and financial contributions—the voices of Israeli punk bands have somehow been absent from the narrative.
Ka’tzon La’tevach (Like Lambs To The Slaughter / כצאן לטבח / كا/أغنام للذبح) is an Israeli neocrust/hardcore punk band from Tel Aviv, with some members now living in Madrid. The band consists of Zion (guitar and vocals), None (guitar and vocals), Haim (bass, ex-Dir Yassin), and Gutzy (drums), who has been part of countless other bands over the years. They play powerful music with a critical view on today’s world and haven’t been afraid to speak out about the situation in the Middle East since their formation around 2018.
I know this interview might be a bit controversial for some, but I believe that Israeli bands have the right to express their point of view without being silenced. In other circumstances, I would talk with the band more about their music, include more band photos, etc., but in the current situation, we can’t ignore all the context surrounding the region. The interview was conducted via email between the 5th and 7th of October, and although it lacks the personal touch of face-to-face communication, it’s my attempt to understand the current Israeli punk scene and how bands like Ka’tzon La’tevach continue to play music with a critical message in such terrible times.
To start things off, can you share some insights into the origins of the Israeli hardcore punk scene for those unfamiliar with it? Did punk take a different form in Israel because of the country’s settler-colonialism history, mandatory military service, and politics?
Gutzy: Thanks for having us on! I’m sorry about any f-ups we might have had while answering this interview, and I hope any of it makes sense at all. We find ourselves answering it in unusual circumstances for the band that we don’t feel particularly bad about, but the onset of recent events has left us in mental disorientation. We hope you find our answers meaningful, or at least entertaining.
As for this particular question, I’m not that old, but I’ll share what I do know. Also, sorry if I mess up the chronology, as it was before my time.
The roots of the Israeli punk scene could probably be traced to the late ’70s or early ’80s, when punk was a popular genre and was imported as a curiosity along with New Wave and other trendy genres of the time. I’m not a well-versed punk historian, but there is an online Israel Punk Archive created by my friend Barak, which documents early bands and club scenes that existed from the early ’80s until the 2000s, and I really recommend checking it out.
I was only an infant in the mid-’80s, and I can only recall the name The Penguin Club in Tel Aviv for being a hub for the early club scene. However, it wasn’t until the very late ’80s or early ’90s that the foundations of the DIY scene that exists to this day were laid. Early punk bands such as Noon Mem and Nekhei Naatza (נכי נאצה), and collectives like the Upper Galilee Anarchist Brigade, were founded and established a clear political narrative to the scene and a country-wide presence via fanzines and shows organized in youth centers around the country. Many punk shows took place then (and to this day!) in the Left Bank, the Tel Aviv headquarters of the Communist Party.
Bands such as Sartan Ha’Shad from Jerusalem, Kuku Bloff Ve’Hayatushim from Ganey Tikva, and Mefageret (מפגרת) from Yahud (Tel Aviv suburbs) were other influential bands of the early ’90s who mostly played in rock clubs and were less politically themed.
Shortly after, there was a big resurgence of DIY bands in Haifa city, namely Useless ID, Public Domain, and 911 Pigs. For a while, there seemed to be harmony between all those scenes, but it didn’t last for long, although I’m not sure about the causes of this animosity.
Again, this was all before my time, but I have the personal impression that resistance to the mandatory draft, resistance to the violent settler movement, and even resistance to Orthodox Judaism were the major political themes of those days, with the latter slowly fading away as religious conversion to Orthodox Judaism became a less prevalent phenomenon within secular society in the late ’90s.
It is worth noting that the early scene had its origins when the First Intifada subsided, with the rise of the second Rabin government and the signing of the Oslo Accords. The ruling government at the time was more inclined to peace agreements with the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization), and public sentiment was more “peacenik” than at any other time. So punk and its socio-political criticisms seemed to me more tame in comparison to what followed, focusing on settler violence and orthodox themes alongside typical punk themes of rebellion and anarchism.
[Yitzhak] Rabin’s 1995 assassination by a radical right-winger and Netanyahu’s first rise to power the following year dramatically changed the social atmosphere. The punk scene quickly followed with more radical anti-fascist and anti-Zionist sentiments than before this dramatic event. New political bands were founded, such as Dir Yassin (in which Haim, our bass player, also played bass), and hardcore bands like USF and Wackout come to mind as prominent in that era. While radical pro-Palestinian opinions were associated with the political DIY scene that was derogatively called “the Left Bank scene” by old-timers of the ’90s, the other aforementioned issues were prevalent in other bands’ messaging as well. Eventually, the political DIY scene became more dominant than the club scene, derogatively called “the mindless scene,” only to be later diluted by many less-political DIY bands. But this relates more to “my time,” and I will answer this in the next questions.
My own introduction to the Israeli DIY punk scene was in the early 2000s with political and anti-Zionist bands like Nekhei Naatza, Dir Yassin, Nikmat Olalim, and Smartut Kahol Lavan. Were these bands an exception, and how were they received by the wider scene?
Gutzy: Sorry if I mess up some dates again. I got into the local punk scene in late 2000 when I was about 15 years old, and I was part of a large influx of young punks who, around 2000–2002, started going to shows, starting bands, and organizing gigs—literally hundreds of 14–17-year-old kids from all over the country.
Nekhei Naatza (נכי נאצה) and Dir Yassin were very influential hardcore punk bands that I and many other kids of the time looked up to when discovering punk. Alongside the awesome Useless ID, they were the “big names” of the DIY punk scene, while Nikmat Olalim (נקמת עוללים) was an anarcho-punk band formed in 2002 by kids who were my age and got into the scene around the same time I did.
When I started going to shows, Nekhei Naatza had already broken up some three years earlier, and Dir Yassin was on a hiatus after their Euro tour, with many of the veteran scenesters living outside of Israel (I think some played a role in Amsterdam’s squatting movement). So the youngsters’ scene considered them as “giants of the past” we just missed (by only a couple of years in retrospect).
Other than the DIY scene, there was a “club scene” of punks revolving around alternative clubs in Tel Aviv that was made up of skaters, street punks, and skinheads whose most seminal bands were also already defunct, and clearly it had much less radical and politically aware punks. But by the time I started going to shows, the large influx of young kids going to punk shows blurred the lines and made the earlier fights we heard about between the scenes just stigmas of the past. However, both scenes persisted separately, with many kids going to shows in either scene.
In 2001 or 2002, some veteran radical punks like Santi and Fedi from Nekhei Naatza and “the Cat” returned to Israel and immediately built a house in Jaffa called Mapakh. It served as an infoshop, political activity center for local and international activists, and a practice room strictly for radical political bands. That is where Smartut Kahol Lavan (סמרטוט כחול לבן) was founded by Fedi (Nekhei Naatza/Dir Yassin) and some young punks who were around 16–17 then.
Alongside my band at the time (Kafa Lapanim Shel Limor Livnat), Nikmat Olalim, and Smartut Kahol Lavan, Mapakh was home to many radical punk activists and bands active in the punk scene at the time, like Sleep Furious and Fearful Soon To Follow, which were the “new bands” of members from Nekhei Naatza and Dir Yassin, while other members played in death metal bands and other genres.
Other fastcore bands like Bar Minan (בר מינן) and Amnon Yitzhak (אַמְנוֹן יִצְחָק) were founded, mirroring the political rage of Dir Yassin and the musical trends of those days, while bands like DxPxAx and Rejuvenate resonated with different trends in the hardcore punk scene.
While the club scene eventually died out almost immediately when its main organizer retired around 2005, the DIY scene kept on thriving, with many international bands coming to play Israel and local bands going on their first tours those years. By surviving to the present in one form or another, its radical political ideals—leftist anarchism, resistance to Zionism and the occupation, and the animal liberation movement of those days—remained the dominant attitude in our scene, despite many bands not dealing with them directly.
And so, a line can be drawn from then to the DIY scene of young punks that exists nowadays, with some kids of my early days (and even from the ’90s) being the “old timers” of today. While some “punks” of the early 2000s had a right-wing ideology, they were a small minority and are now all but gone. While I remember a few minor fights in the early 2000s, like when bands such as Nikmat Olalim played shows with Palestinian keffiyehs in more mainstream venues, they became pretty much extinct as the club scene faded away while the DIY scene persisted onwards to this day, where kids as young as we were then are playing ripping political hardcore punk—only they are much better than we ever were.
How did punks and Israeli anarchists relate to Palestine solidarity activism in the 1990s and early 2000s? Was Anarchists Against The Wall (AATW) a punk-inspired project?
Gutzy: Firstly, just to clarify things considering the theme of this question and this interview going forward, I think it is important to say that I have been a punk musician for most of my life—more importantly, for much longer than my short stints with radical political activism mostly around my late teens and early 20s. While I am nowadays ‘a bit involved’ in far-left politics in Israel (much like what I presume most people who are reading this interview), I am not a radical activist in any serious capacity. I am just a punk drummer with an opinion that’s also involved in some political stuff. And so, my opinion should be taken accordingly.
While the leftist and anarchist ideals of the DIY scene were laid down in the mid-’90s by bands like Nekhei Naatza and Public Domain, and fanzines written by these punks, the 2000s were the decade in which the Israeli punk scene was likely more involved with Palestine solidarity activism than any other time before or after. Then, the scene saw a bloom of many political bands singing about this issue from around the country. I could note some events that affected solidarity activism in one way or another.
One was the outbreak of the Second Intifada in late 2000, which entangled the country in waves of violence. The punk scene experienced personal loss when several punks lost their lives in bus bombing attacks during those years. This did not hamper solidarity efforts, as the victims, their families, and their punk friends were peace and solidarity activists, and the urgency of the issue was realized.
Another was the construction of the separation wall by the Sharon government, which triggered many protest movements, including Anarchists Against The Wall—an affinity group whose membership indeed included veterans as well as younger punks of the time—that were involved in some of the most radical direct actions of the time.
Another notable event was the Mas’ha Peace Camp, established by the Coalition Against The Wall around 2003. Many punks played a role, and it was one of the few instances in which much of the punk scene mobilized for a specific Palestine solidarity cause.
Punks were involved in Salon Mazal infoshop and the local branch of Indymedia in the first half of that decade. These were epicenters of Palestine solidarity action that served as organization centers for local and international activists in many capacities.
Around 2005–2011, a more distinct group of punks within the scene were involved in solidarity activism in the West Bank and were associated with some bands—for example, Mitaan and Marmara Streisand—as well as starting their own related collectives and zines within the punk scene.
Meanwhile, Rogatka (“Slingshot”) club, founded on the ruins of the legendary Patiphone punk club in 2008, operated until 2011 as a political space in which activism took first priority over punk shows. It was run by punks who were heavily involved in Palestine solidarity activism, queer activism, and animal rights activism. An anecdote I have about that space is that their collective made a public statement about not allowing IDF soldiers in uniform entry to the club. It somehow attracted mainstream media scrutiny that immediately triggered outrage by nationalists. But despite this, the “scandal” subsided without consequences, which is unthinkable considering the mainstream public sentiment nowadays.
Also, there was an affinity between some punks and their associated spaces and the International Solidarity Movement that originated in the early 2000s, but I only know little about it.
While many punks have left the DIY scene, some are still active in Palestine solidarity activism to this day, and vice versa. There was indeed a strong affinity between those movements in the era you mentioned, that later dissipated to include smaller groups of activist punks rather than the entire scene. Perhaps this was also diluted by many “less political” punk bands, some of which I unapologetically took part in, because I wholeheartedly believe that punk and artistic expression don’t have to be strictly related to burning political issues and could also relate to personal politics and feelings. Even nonsensical themes are valid forms of expression within the boundaries of punk, no matter where you come from.
But solidarity with Palestinians was and is still prominent in the scene’s political discourse and messaging.
The anarcho-nihilist book Blessed Is The Flame opens with “We are being led to our slaughter,” (similar to your band name and title of your first album) and its final chapter, The Void, resonates with the title of your second album. Is this a coincidence, or has the book influenced your band?
Zion: Our second album mostly talks about the consequences of modern life from all kinds of different aspects, leaving behind any commentary within the framework of social narrative, neoliberalism, capitalism, colonialism, and imperialism.
The album cover features one of the few photos of a Sentinel tribal man on North Sentinel Island. The Sentinels are the last tribe on Earth that maintains a primitive lifestyle.
We called it “Void” because this is how we feel about modern society.
We have gone far from our connection to nature.
I think that mankind’s exploitation of nature sums up the essence of life in a material world. It is clear that the animal food industry is a decisive factor in high morbidity and enormous ecological damage; that wars and mass destruction are based on geopolitical location and control of natural resources; the “sanctity of life” is reduced to powerful individuals; and the concept of time does not really exist beyond the constructs of human social framework because everything happens in the here and now, without ever thinking ahead.
The question of what is human nature has occupied my mind for many years.
In my mind, I used to associate human nature as entwined with the natural world, but I guess it’s more of my romantic hippie approach. When I dive deeper into this thought, I eventually feel that everything that’s happening these days is completely organic and natural—in practice, human nature is power, control, and greed, and it’s completely natural to me that we are the cause of injustice and suffering in the world.
Mankind contributes to everything we ourselves want to abolish.
Mankind uses natural resources in an irresponsible way for the profit of a few, within the fabricated frameworks of “capitalism” or “democracy.” We consume a morbid excess of animal products, we still use slavery, bomb each other, destroy the oceans, etc., etc.
Maybe we need to run away
Live by the rivers
Die by the mighty forces of nature
And not by the exploitation of the lustful
As for the book, I never read it so I can’t refer to this comparison.
You addressed Palestinian resistance in songs like “N.O Protestor” and especially “There’s No Unjustified Hatred” on your second LP, Void. How do you feel about comparisons between the events of October 7th and historical ghetto uprisings?
Gutzy: I discourage such comparisons, and I think they are morally and factually dishonest, seeking total vindication of one narrative over the acceptance of inexcusable wrongdoings on both sides. Needless to say, both Israelis and Palestinians have found many parallels between the events of October 7th and the Holocaust and put themselves in the victims’ shoes. Ultimately, this kind of argument only serves to dehumanize the other side and paint the October 7th events and their circumstances as absolute good versus evil, while the actual circumstances are very different and paint a disturbing picture of both sides.
I do encourage honest and self-reflecting comparisons with historical events, especially those related to the Nazi regime and the Holocaust. One of my other band’s most popular songs deals with how Israeli society is terrified of comparisons to Nazi Germany while it stumbles down the same path itself. But needless to say, this is something completely different.
Zion: Thanks for referring to our songs and lyrics. We appreciate the fact that people can interpret these texts in different ways.
“N.O Protestor” was written during COVID time when I was part of a small group that was trying to create a civil alternative to the Israeli parliament, which completely neglected the general population, instead promoting their colleagues from their military service, their relatives, or people who would fulfill their political goals.
It was the first time that I felt some kind of unity among the people against our government, regardless of our political views. My dear friend who was a part of Anarchists Against The Wall sings in this song and made an important movie about the occupation (Even Though My Land Is Burning), which I watched during those intense days.
The parallel existence of Palestinians and Israelis suffering from this corrupt, terrible government keeps us all with our heads above water, trying to survive day by day, each in his own “prison,” while they’re feeding us with hate for one another.
When I reach the source of how we live, I have to point out the Zionist idea that the Jewish people deserve to return to their land, when I believe we could have found a solution to live together in peace. I consider it in the context that the Jewish people have lived on this land for 5,000 years and there were always different occupations around this area. And also in the context that in 2,000 years of exile we moved around the world, whether in deportation, genocide, racism, and prejudices, until we got the “right to return,” while the Zionist idea was poisoned by the same terrible ideas and has been used against the Palestinians for 76 years.
This song is basically referring to this parallel existence, which makes me realize that our mutual enemy is that Zionist idea. We all know how it manifests itself in the context of the Palestinians, but in the context of the Israelis, they think they deserve everything—the land, to cut people on the road, to be first in line, to receive a discount, to be mean to others. All of it is contaminated by that Zionist idea of “we deserve it.”
Just to make myself clear, I don’t believe that anyone on Earth has a right over any land; we just live this mental consciousness.
“There’s No Unjustified Hatred” was written during a night out with friends. The song is a sort of criticism of life in the Tel Aviv bubble, which is a refuge for anyone who has free thinking, so to speak. Paying attention to the bigger picture and the possibilities given to each person, I reach the same bottom line every time: if knowledge is power, then lack of knowledge is weakness, and in many cases, lack of knowledge is a strength for someone stronger who knows how to take advantage of this weakness.
There are no interactions between Israelis and Palestinians beyond military interactions. Leaders, as well as the media, keep this situation existing out of interests of economic power. If a Palestinian citizen received a permit for a so-called “non-military” interaction, it would be at work in the Israeli territories, usually construction work in deplorable conditions and low wages, after spending hours at checkpoints and arriving at the construction site to see people walking around freely while he builds settlements in the occupied land with his own hands.
The word “barriers” in Hebrew (“Makhsomim” מחסומים) also stands for military checkpoints, and there are many barriers beyond the physical ones. The lack of real interactions between people creates barriers between them, while whatever is left seems to revolve around only intimidation and violence. There are no real conversations; generalization is rough and sharp, and the goal of leading us all to the point of no return is cruelly successful.
To me, the events of October 7th were similar to a bubble that was waiting to explode. On that day, I was hooked on my phone, watching body camera footage of Hamas soldiers and videos that people pass on WhatsApp and Telegram groups during a huge missile attack, with a lot of fear and uncertainty about my life or my loved ones.
Regarding the comparison to historical ghetto uprisings—while the similarities are stark, I think the differences are worth pointing out. They were mostly a reaction to sending people to extermination camps and were happening against the Nazis and not against German civilians. Also, the Jewish people in the ghettos had small underground units which got some help from the Polish Underground and also a lot of random and spontaneous uprisings.
Hamas and the Islamic Jihad are two groups with a lot of funding and material support from Iran and Qatar, who control and use their own people to fulfill their religious and nationalist goals. The Israeli government is doing its part to make comparisons between it and the Nazis more and more valid, and I do see the similarity. But with all the “respect” to any terrorist group or governments, it’s not easy to compare anything to what the Nazis have done in the context of making soaps out of people, gas chambers, or killing in total more than 17 million people.
Your new EP, Blood’s Right Over The Land, released about a month ago, reflects a complex mix of emotions. What do you hope listeners take away from it? You also mentioned struggling to write objective lyrics—how did you finally approach this amidst such deep emotional turmoil?
Zion: I hope that people who read our lyrics consider them as written from an Israeli and Palestinian perspective, rather than an “international” outlook of uninvolved individuals commenting on a far-away conflict.
I see a lot of voices within the international punk sphere who openly support “armed resistance” despite its fallacies, when I think the whole point of the term “Freedom” is eventually missing. Especially when both sides of the conflict are killing and kidnapping civilians who literally have nothing to do with the violent motivations of the combatants or have no personal responsibility for brutal decisions done in their names.
In the song “That’s Not Freedom,” we wrote:
“Freedom never describes the existence of one group at the expense of another”
We stand by this concept, even and especially these days.
We have food on our tables, tanks don’t pass by our houses, and we don’t hide in the ruins alongside dead bodies. We are privileged—but we are not free.
That said, unlike those voices from abroad calling for a morbid form of “justice,” it’s impossible for me to think that the solution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is to either kill or deport any group of people, and at the same time to call either the Israeli occupation or a murderous “armed resistance” a moral fight.
The truth is that we lost our empathy and compassion.
We feed these nationalist and religious ideas with our apathy for dead babies or acceptance of violent armed men. To choose war and death—it is, was, and will be the worst decision.
Our message is to point out those responsible for these wars and to keep them as far as we can from the public life of the decision-makers, and to remember that Jews and Arabs lived in peace for hundreds of years and to promote consensus instead of division.
It is important to note that such dichotomic black-and-white thinking—apart from bringing us to a dead end—is also expressed in the same lack of understanding regarding our positions.
So, as briefly as possible—while we express different sides in the conflict, it does not mean that they are balanced or that symmetry exists between them. It is indisputably clear that there is one side that holds full territorial control within a distinct apartheid regime, genocide, expansion of settlements, and a social temperament that leads to the encouragement of racism towards minorities.
But still, there are always other sides, even if they are privileged, even if they live on the occupying side, and even if it doesn’t fit with the narrative of certain people sitting in their houses (built on occupied land) in Europe and the USA.
The problem lies in the fact that those privileged are seen as part of a government that does not represent their views.
We find ourselves explaining why even one murder of an innocent person is wrong and horrible—do we really need an explanation?
Any death of innocents is terrible, no matter what the circumstances are.
Yes, it is necessary to emphasize again and again that there is complete inequality, but this is not a basketball game, dear friends; to start justifying the death of innocent Israelis just because on the other side there is a significantly greater number of victims does not make this death legitimate.
For me, it was really hard to find the words I was trying to say because I’m emotionally involved.
Five of my dear friends were brutally murdered in the attack of October 7th. Two of them were kidnapped; one of them died in captivity, the other was murdered in captivity. Two of my colleagues are still in captivity.
My fear and frustration were over the top.
My rage was even over it when I saw people I know and appreciate around the world who were celebrating and blessing this attack.
Every text I wrote was trying to push a finger in the eye of all these people who celebrated the death of my loved ones and my fear of death.
We recorded the EP in December 2023, and we had the final lyrics around June 2024. During all these six months, we wrote dozens of texts that always felt like taking a side in this war.
Within the feeling of loss, I want to stand with my friends, but I can’t agree or support the Israeli reaction.
On the other side, I 100% understand the Palestinian side, who deserves to live a decent life with equal rights and full freedom of movement.
So on one hand, I want to continue to write against the Israeli government and to support the Palestinian struggle for freedom, and on the other hand, I want to scream at the punk and anarchist communities that they lost their moral ways in the name of solidarity with the Palestinians.
Eventually, I think we succeeded in passing our message in this EP.
No one is free until everyone is free.
Some of you live in Madrid, and last week you were set for a Spanish tour to support your latest EP, which was canceled due to promoters citing the BDS (Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions) movement as a reason for not booking an Israeli band. This brings to mind the open letter Gabriel Kuhn wrote to Maximumrocknroll a few years ago. Have you read it, and what are your thoughts on the tour being canceled?
Zion: Yes, I moved to Madrid two months after the war started.
The issue of emigrating from the country is a controversial matter that we also pay attention to in the context of reactions from different people. It should be clarified that most citizens do not have the option to leave, either because they do not have additional citizenship or because they have too many obligations such as family and work.
I don’t think it’s a bad idea to emigrate, obviously, but it’s not going to defeat the occupation; it’s not a solution other than helping the private life of that person who can and chooses to leave. It is out of touch with reality to expect people who were born without a choice on stolen land to leave in an instant.
Personally, I couldn’t accept the reality of murder in my name nor having rockets over my head six times a day and running with my dog to the shelter and ongoing phone calls to my loved ones to check if they’re OK.
Life in Madrid is amazing; the people are super nice and empathetic, but I feel there’s a “black and white” kind of thinking that is prevalent.
In regards to the Spanish tour, my intention was to bring a different approach to the Spanish dichotomy in the context of “Oppressed” and “Oppressor” and to share our point of view with the same group of people who I consider “my kind people,” namely those who are part of the punk and anarchist community.
We wrote a public statement, translated our lyrics—our art and message are pretty clear—but it wasn’t enough for some people in Barcelona. On to the story.
The truth is that once things really started, they escalated very quickly.
We did expect to get communications from pro-Palestinian groups when touring in Spain, and it’s important to note that the BDS group in Murcia contacted us about two weeks before the tour, initially with a message that we interpreted as quite aggressive, using language that seemed to us quite discriminatory on the basis of our national origin and demanded us to clarify our position, despite our public statement, songs, and artwork already being out and free to access by anyone. Before heading on tour, we engaged in discussion with the Murcia BDS group, after which they apologized for their original message, said that they made a mistake, and some of them were even supposed to come to our show.
Our first show was in Galicia, and it was unique in the sense that we had a political discussion with local pro-Palestinian activists and the crowd before our concert. I mustered my best Spanish, and despite being a fresh immigrant, I managed to have a very insightful two-hour discussion with the audience about our lives and experiences before we started playing. With the exception of some remarkably nice older folks who headed home after the talk, everybody stayed for the show, and we ended up having a really great concert.
The following day, we played in another venue in Galicia, which was a unique and magical townhouse in the middle of nowhere, but otherwise, the concert itself was quite uneventful.
On the third day, we were heading to Oviedo in Asturias to play a show in a local venue that we have already played several times with some of our other bands—it ended up being probably the best show on our short tour. But by the time we played the concert, shit had hit the fan on the internet, and our tour took a sharp turn for the worse.
Apparently, some days prior to that concert, some people from Barcelona who are not even part of the punk scene were “offended” by the poster artwork and clearly didn’t like the idea that an Israeli band was coming to play in their city. So the collective who booked the show received tons of messages demanding to cancel the event as well as calls to boycott the venue hosting it. Even then, we received indications from the organizers that the Barcelona collective operating the venue wanted to continue to promote the event, until they apparently succumbed to pressure and decided to discuss the matter with some BDS groups, who never approached us personally.
Instead, while on our way to Asturias, we were forwarded a declaration with three “points” regarding Palestinian rights, to which we responded at length with an answer that was nearly identical to the one given to the Murcia BDS group, which, as mentioned before, satisfied them, and we never got any message in response. However, later that day when we arrived at where we’d stay for the night in Oviedo, we received news that the show in Barcelona that was three days later was canceled either way—something that we considered and weren’t too worried about, all things considered. We assumed that the pressure was just too great and the Barcelona collective didn’t want to deal with it and decided it’s just too much for them rather than communicate our points, which is why we never got an answer to our response to BDS.
However, shortly before we arrived at the venue in Oviedo that night, we found out that the Barcelona collective operating the venue posted a lengthy Instagram post from the venue’s account, informing about the canceling of our show, having “found out” that we “do not support the rights of pro-Palestinian people,” that they “reaffirm their commitment to fighting all forms of racism,” and stated they will not give space to any music group that “helps whitening any kind of Israeli oppression.” Needless to say, this is absolute BS. The post immediately exploded, eventually becoming the venue’s most liked post in history, and a total shitstorm ensued. Considering the fact that the majority of people who commented seemed to be completely oblivious or misinterpreted the context and themes of our tour, I’m pretty sure that none of them have read anything about us or any of our statements nor cared about them.
We ended up playing the Oviedo concert that night. I spoke from my heart and expressed my frustration with the situation and said we should break this cycle of hate. Like every other night when we had a chance to speak with the people coming to our shows, I felt the positive communication with the crowd. It was such a great show.
However, the next day, while we were heading to play a show in Zarautz (Basque Country), we saw that the Murcia BDS group that we communicated with before our tour published a statement as well, calling to boycott the venue in Murcia the day after our canceled Barcelona show. I guess they looked at themselves as a bunch of amateurs considering that the Barcelona BDS group had taken a harder line against us and tried to repair their image by coming up with a similar statement to that of the Barcelona BDS group.
Despite all this, the organizers of the Murcia show stood firmly by our side and were determined to go on with the show, recognizing that we are an anarchist punk band that stands against the Israeli regime and insisting that we should play the show.
Basically, I have no problem with boycotting the event; just let people choose if they want to support it or not.
However, it ended with violent threats to destroy the squat in Murcia hosting the concert. WHAT THE FUCK is going on with the punk community?
The following day, we had a day off in Basque Country, and we witnessed the rest of our tour falling apart. The collective of Málaga entered the fray and published a statement that was full of lies against us only to clean their hands—we have messages that can prove it.
We headed back to my home in Madrid to calculate our next moves, and by the time we arrived, we found out that the show planned for there was also canceled, which left us with only one remaining show that we canceled ourselves.
In conclusion, we got an interesting experience as a band, and this leaves me with some unanswered questions.
How is it possible that a global boycott organization which is not part of the punk or anarchist communities nor shares their values is setting the tone about moral standards?
Doesn’t it contradict punk ethics?
BDS has no solution for both sides; they promote support only to the Palestinian people—it was always clear to me.
But we, as people who all our lives, family, and friends are living and dealing with the consequences of the occupation, we can’t justify freedom to the Palestinians by negation of that of the Jewish people or vice versa. The solution is living side by side with a new kind of leadership for both of us. In this sense, I endorse the position of the Israeli-Palestinian group Standing Together, who promote peace and brotherhood among the people.
We deserve a better future than just war and death.
I hope that this incident will shed a bit of light on how we all can be led like lambs to the slaughter, and how far do we take our activism?
How can we promote a long-term solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict without canceling the existence of the other group?
In regards to the article—I haven’t read it, but I definitely will. The cancellation of the tour is a bummer, but isn’t anything too hard. It’s not that we had life-changing shows or it was a profitable tour; on the contrary. We’re a DIY punk band; the cancellation didn’t hurt anyone.
It’s just a shame for me that people are losing it, that the punk community is not the same place where I was educated and built my personality, and that comments on social media are stronger than ideologies and physical actions.
We’ve also seen many German venues and promoters silencing pro-Palestinian voices and canceling hardcore bands set to play in Germany. What are your thoughts on the German pro-Zionist left?
Gutzy: I have some familiarity with the split between the political scenes in Germany. While the overt Zionism and “Pro-Israel Antifa” motifs of the Anti-Germans were always cringy and honestly extremely ironic to me—considering that Israel is an extremely racist/fascist state that is as far as it gets from antifascist ideals in my mind, while the Palestinian struggle is definitely more easily associated with a liberation struggle against oppressive state forces—I do have good friends on both sides of this discussion, and I do have criticism of the way “anti-imperialist” pro-Palestinians perceive our conflict as well.
But a recent development I have heard about, of Anti-Germans cooperating with the German police in order to censor pro-Palestinian voices, made me extremely angry and to me crosses a serious red line of what is legitimate conduct within a political argument between seemingly antifascist groups. However, I only heard this from people on “the other side” and don’t want to comment heavily on hearsay.
As for pro-Zionist German leftists canceling hardcore bands set to play in Germany because of their pro-Palestinian opinions—well, I obviously disagree with this, but mostly, this doesn’t seem like an issue that should be particularly offensive or volatile in the context of playing in Germany, you know? And this is why this is a tricky question for me to answer in particular.
I think the Israeli DIY punk scene was always adamant about giving a voice to pro-Palestinian bands throughout the years—well, for as much as we could anyways—as pro-Palestinian hardcore bands who did decide to play Israel and managed to come in while avoiding scrutiny from the patriotic mainstream Israeli media and society were ultimately much more likely to face backlash from pro-Palestinian groups in other countries for not boycotting our scene altogether, while we were ecstatic about such bands making the gargantuan effort to come and play for us at all.
And honestly, some of my favorite bands in the world are pro-Palestinian punk bands whose members are awesome people and good friends of mine, and I would never dare inviting them to play in our scene just because I would never want to get them in trouble with either the general Israeli media and society, nor with their own fans or pro-Palestinian movements for breaking the cultural boycott on Israel, despite how they might feel about us personally or about the open-minded politics of our scene.
So I guess you could see why this question is quite tricky for me. I mean, my own bands were canceled in Europe by pro-Palestinian groups, with Ka’tzon La’tevach’s messaging being deep within the realms of how ‘anti-Zionist punk’ is perceived in the Israeli scene but wouldn’t agree to conform 100% to the “agreed-upon positions” of the dogmatic pro-Palestinian left, and with other bands just not making a clear pro-Palestinian proclamation strictly within this particular time.
So in a general sense, I think it would be hypocritical of me to criticize other people who do cancel bands over their opinions, while I was canceled not even for my opinions, but ultimately because of prejudice about what my opinion could be—based only on where I come from! Which to me is, well, a bit like… something that ends with ‘-ism’? And definitely the exact opposite of what I thought ‘punk’ was, as my only presumption about punks from any corner of this planet is that we share more ideals in common than what we share with either of the rotten societies we come from.
To me personally, with punk always on the side of the oppressed, this implies at least somewhat of a more pro-Palestinian tendency than a pro-Zionist one in these times, but shouldn’t this be obvious to everybody when punks are involved?
I personally feel that the political argument about Israel/Palestine among leftists in Germany and other European countries tends to be quite dogmatic, sometimes driven by personal or regional rivalries, and sometimes includes immature and pathological viewpoints. Ultimately, I can only comment on the subject anecdotally, given the fact that this seems to be more related to how German and other European punks interpret their views through Eurocentric analysis of anti-humanistic Marxist or post-Marxist theory, which I don’t subscribe to, as I am a non-militant anarchist who believes in solidarity and coexistence, and I struggle to find allies to my viewpoint outside the punk scene.
I realize that my viewpoint might seem naive or even detached to some people on the left in the current state of affairs, but I stand by my principles, and I can’t justify violence against innocent civilians, whether Palestinian or Israeli, and I feel little understanding for those who recently changed their minds about this particular issue, and these seem to be more than a few people on both sides nowadays.
Over the past year, the global hardcore punk scene has shown immense solidarity with Palestine, raising a lot of money through benefit compilations, merch, and shows all over the world. There are also Israeli compilations like The Black List by Met Ba Pogo, featuring both older and newer bands from the Israeli alternative scene. Can you tell us a bit more about the current local scene and its political leanings?
Gutzy: The Black List compilation was, beyond an effort to raise awareness of human rights issues and pro-Palestinian voices and showcase many of the younger punk bands in the Israeli DIY scene, a reaction of the punk scene and Met Ba Pogo collective to an actual blacklist recently composed and spread by some nationalist promoters and fans in the Israeli metal scene, which is notoriously reactionary and right-wing. They created a blacklist of pro-Palestinian punk bands who should be banned from any promotions or events because apparently they are “Hamas supporters,” and this slander shows the level of discourse and how any kind of dissent against the oppression of Palestinians is perceived within the supposedly “alternative” metal scene in Israel. In my opinion, it exposes the pettiness and dogmatism of the fascist thought-police in our extended alternative scene and lack of solidarity between alternative musicians in these times. And I don’t think this phenomenon is exclusive to our country at all.
It is worth noting that the compilation has many old and new bands, and it doesn’t feature all the current bands listed on the actual blacklist. For example, a relatively apolitical punk rock band I play in called Not On Tour is also on that blacklist of bands to boycott for being anti-Israeli and “pro-Hamas” due to our stance on human rights and Palestine. But on the other hand, we also found ourselves blacklisted by pro-Palestinian groups in Spain “for not taking a clear stance” regarding the conflict in recent months, and we were called pro-Zionist and complicit with genocide. So make of it what you will, but it’s all the same BS to me.
Ultimately, that particular actual blacklist, just like many other fights and rivalries that sprung from hateful internet discussions, had shockwaves going way beyond proportion, as these are cynical and hateful times where people turn on each other with ease.
The scene is very small; there are all kinds of initiatives, and we also chose to donate from our own pockets and also from part of the band’s income to organizations that help the Palestinians with food donations. There is indeed a buzz, some of which is nothing more than trendy, and it also exists in the local scene. I guess the main difference between punks in Israel and punks abroad in this context is that a punk in Europe, for example, who comes out against the Israeli occupation is part of the norm and is some kind of voice that is much more common than the voice of a punk hence defined by society as a traitor. There are differences of opinion, but in general, this small group of punks in Israel is essentially anti-fascist and therefore also anti-Zionist.
Can you share your thoughts on the current state of Israeli society, what lies ahead for Netanyahu, and the situation in the region for the time being and the near future?
Zion: I will share my own dystopian prophecy.
Israeli society is fucked completely.
After October 7th, a lot of people fell into a vicious hate towards Arabs. It’s like everything that Netanyahu needed to show the Israeli people that there’s no solution but to exterminate the Palestinians.
From my perspective and according to the evidence, I feel that the Israeli government was complicit in the attack on October 7th. There were many warnings from different resources that around the same date there would be a massive attack on Israel, and no one did anything to stop it. Thousands of soldiers left the Gaza Strip to protect a far-right extremist who’s a parliament member that made a lot of provocations in the village of Hawara in the West Bank until a bunch of settlers burned a part of the village.
There’s much more evidence like that. The fact that this government is doing everything they can to avoid an investigation about the October 7th attack led me to think that it might have been an inside job, even if it was just to ignore the warnings.
Netanyahu is losing his power. He’s still using his normal manipulation, but I hear that some of his supporters don’t believe him anymore. The thing is that there’s a much worse alternative now, and it’s the radical Jewish nationalist party that is growing fast. Some of the members were literally part of a terrorist group called The Jewish Underground. This group was arrested in the ’80s after several terrorist attacks against Palestinians. Nowadays, they are in the background of the Israeli parliament; they are very close to Netanyahu, and their voice, represented by Itamar Ben Gvir (the Minister of Internal Security) and Bezalel Smotrich (the Minister of Economy), has transformed Israeli politics in two years in a way that never happened before.
Most of the budget goes to build new settlements, to “Jewish heritage studies” to brainwash the youth, while the middle class is about to disappear, and secular people are more and more overtly marked as the enemy of this government. Their main goal is still to build the Third Temple on the ruins of Al-Aqsa Mosque, which is the third most important holy site for Muslims. This will lead to what they call “The Gog and Magog War” (Armageddon in foreign scripture), which is an integral part of their Messianic prophecy.
I would like to point out that these extremist politicians represent not more than 10% of the population in Israel (namely, West Bank settlers), but their ideologies are getting into people’s minds. While this war is happening, they’re passing new laws that will keep them in power. So, in my opinion, what we are witnessing now is only the beginning of the end.
Gutzy: In regards to parliamentary politics, I unfortunately think Netanyahu is still very likely to retain his power for as long as he desires, as he skillfully manipulated the centrist “opposition” to serve him whenever necessary by both skillful brinkmanship on his side and unbelievable idiocy on theirs, and mobilized his far-right and orthodox coalition partners to accept him as the right-wing bloc leader, at least for the time being. Despite his drop in popularity following the October 7 events, he has since “successfully”—on his part—driven the country into a murderous bloodbath in Gaza, a collapse of civil order inside Israel, and the entire region into chaotic uncertainty with such skill that he’d find himself in a favorable position to be voted for again by the terrified and exhausted masses while his political partners consolidate power via autocratic legislation, sow civil chaos, and both institutional and street violence against minorities, protesters, and dissidents, which I can only see developing into either a full-blown civil war or the onset of a totalitarian regime.
Clearly, the mainstream political opposition is made of spineless opportunists who hold various shades of right-wing opinions and are too cowardly or stupid to offer any real alternative or simply don’t find themselves in disagreement with Netanyahu and his partners’ policies of violent Jewish supremacy and murderous dehumanization of Palestinians, but rather with his style of governance or personal corruption. I think that Israeli politics are inherently very personal and non-ideological in recent decades, with the decades of Netanyahu’s reign slowly putting a lid on any hope for a political solution to the conflict.
So, other than remnants of civil society, protest movements, and a few MPs of the Arab/Communist parties, there are few people in the political system who represent any radical opposition to Netanyahu’s populist ideas or those of his far-right and orthodox partners, and they hold only a handful of seats in Israel’s 120-seat parliament, with the rest being populist and pale figureheads who fail to offer any viable alternative for the future of the country.
I think that “the die is cast” by now, and Netanyahu has crossed the final Rubicon, and his bloc with the far right and their victory in the 2022 elections signified the full legitimization of fascist, racist, and genocidal politicians in power, despite some of the less savory ones being relatively marginal and kept away from “too powerful positions” in past governments, and they are not likely to ever give up their power voluntarily.
I don’t think Israeli society is capable or willing to overcome them now or in the foreseeable future. I fear the future for the region is quite bleak and terrifying to anyone who isn’t living under a rock, and as a result, many of the country’s citizens who fear for the future are actively working towards emigration to the West. This is obviously not sustainable, and unless there’s a radical and sudden change of direction, I’m certain we will witness a much larger and more dramatic collapse of civil order within the next few months or years.
You can find Ka’tzon La’tevach on Bandcamp, Facebook and Instagram.
